German Maestro SWF 8012 HE

Hi and welcome to the Hifi-Forum!

First of all: The Helix component system is definitely a good choice and if powered by an amplifier there will be a good quality sound. Of course you will have to prepare the doors appropriately, but that is another topic.

To your question: I have not heard both of the subs. What I know for sure is that the sensitivity of the German Maestro in no way is 93dB. Those parameters are only used for marketing and should not be used for orientation.

To help you a little better it would be nice if you could supply us with a little more information: Where are you from? Are all the products on the German market easily available for you? What made you choose the two models that you brought up here? What are the circumstances the woofers will have to work in? What are you willing to pay for a solution? And do you maybe have a picture of the position where the woofer shall be mounted?

I know, not too few questions but they are necessary to reach the best solution for you

Hello Joze and thank you kindly for your prompt reply. I really appreciate it (also your willingness to write in English on a German site). I am a Werder Bremen fan, but apart from a few words (like "Ich liebe dich", or maybe "Was is das? Das is kontrabass!") my German is not that good :-)

Okay, to start... I am from Serbia. I am able to get things from Germany in two ways:
1.) Have a guy bring it to me (usually costs like 20% of the initial price)
2.) Ship it to Slovakia where I have some family (but this also costs)

Alternative way of getting my supplies is from a shop in Czech Republic (shipping to Slovakia from there is very affordable, for example subwoofer + components = 5 eur). The prices are also lower than in Germany, for example on ebay.de Helix Esprit 62C costs 157 (+20%), while in Chech Republic (Slovakia) the price is 123 euro because they are on a discount.
http://www.revilohif...ix-esprit-e-62c.html

Okay, now to continue on. As mentioned in my initial email, the car of choice is Opel Tigra B (twintop). Here are two pictures:





The opening is behing the seats. Up front, there is like 22cm from top to bottom. A little more back it's maybe 17cm, at the end it's like 12-13 cm. I just had a moment to look at it while checking one car (I don't own a Tigra yet). Overall the opening has around 70 liters of space.

In my opinion, nothing bigger than a 8" subwoofer can fit there... However there is a possibility to fit 2x8" subwoofers (or even more).

My plan is to make a "budget SQ system". So loudness isn't my goal. I want all components to "melt with the music". I don't wish to know that I have a subwoofer, or midbass, or tweeters. I just wish to hear good music.

I plan to seal the doors with alubutyl. Also for any plastic parts that rattle.

Now to answer your question, why only Morel Primo or German Mastro?

1.) German Maestro pretty much only because it seems efficient and is able to go low. I do not know how it sounds though.

2.) Morel - because it is also sensitive (89dm), can drop as low as 20hz, and it has a great sound even at low power (200+ rms) . Also, it is available from the store in Czech Republic for 150 euros (here are what other subwoofers are available).
http://www.revilohif...statne-subwoofery/8/

3.) Initially I was thinking about getting Helix Esprimo e8w subs. They are the cheapest, but their efficiency is not that good (85db), and also they don't seem to go too low? They act more like midbass than subsonic woofers, so that is why I decided to abandon that idea. They are the most beautiful woofer though (for me at least).

4.) Helix Precision - affordable, but I am not sure how good they sound? Also they have a bigger magnet, and are not very good looking :-( But neither is German Maestro...

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My wish is to have two 8" woofers in the back, but that complicates things.

1.) If the woofer isn't Helix Esprit or Precision (83-99 euros per piece), the price is too high to have two.
2.) I would need to have two amplifiers, one for the components, one for the subs
3.) I would need to get thicker cables, though this isn't really a problem, but buying extra battery or something like that is.

With only 1 subwoofer, I planned to run everything with 20qmm cables (pure copper, length would probably be less than 4 meters since it is a small car). Amplifier of choice would be:
Helix HXA 400 MKII or
Phase Evolution RS4 or
Digital Designs DD-C4a
or something like that... So 4x100wrms amplifier. I think the speakers can handle it (even though they are rated as "just 60wrms), and the subs should be able to handle it too. It problems arise, I just lower the gain a bit (better to have more than less).

My budget is decent, but not above that... I would personally like to buy everything used, however I looked at ads on this forum (and ebay) and there is nothing good for me there.

My mind is set on Helix Esprite component speakers. New cost 123 euros, so that is fine. If anybody is selling used ones for less money, please say so :-D

Finding a good, used amplifier is not a problem either.

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Now comes the main questions:

1.) How big of a difference is from having one 8" sub, and two 8" sub? Should I pay more money and go through extra work in order to install two from the start. Tigra is a small car. Only 2 seats and a very small cabin.

2.) What subwoofer is best for me? Morel Primo, German Maestro, Helix Esprit, or maybe Helix Precision? Maybe something else completely?

Anything you can advise me now will be very appreciated because I have been thinking about this for a long time and I am tired from all the thinking :-D

P.S. I forgot to say that I mostly listen to electronic music (progressive house, chillstep, etc). Here is one example YouTube link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUtRONC8k0g

You are welcome, I am happy to have the opportunity to practice my English again And being a fan of my home towns football team is a desirable choice

The price for the Helix is good and as already mentioned, if driven on an amplifier in an appropriately modified door, they will work perfectly. Do not concentrate too much on the Watts, they do not really have any significance. You can drive those speakers with a 50 Watts/ch amplifier as well as with one with 150 Watts/ch.
Do you need any advice for sealing the doors? There are some good tutorials here like this one for a Polo 9N or the one I made for a Golf Mk II. You would just have to transfer the basic idea to your own doors.

70 liters is a lot of space for 8" woofers. You would probably even be able to put 3 subwoofers there. But maybe that would truly exceed your goals
I would then at least put in two subwoofers. I also found the Gladen SQX08 in that shop, this is a good model for your music in a ventilated enclosure. Two of them would fit into that compartment and they would be guaranteed to make fun. I would recommend an amplifier with about 200-300 Watts per woofer. Also through the use of a ventilated enclosure you will have the possibility to tune low and reach lower frequencies which normally would be difficult for a cheaper 8" woofer.

As already stated before, the sensitivity in the data sheet is not really a parameter to choose a woofer from. This data is measured with procedures that differ from manufacturer to manufacturer, only a graph shwoing the sensitivity over all the frequencies would be helpful when collected on 1W/1m.

To come to your questions:

1. When you double the cone space in theory you gain 3dB. Two woofers will have higher output and will be able to go lower.

2. I would recommend the Gladen SQX08. This is a very common choice in my area and it really is a good woofer. Also it fits to your musical taste when put in a ventilated enclosure

Hello again,

Thanks for the tutorial links. I have some experience there because I used alubutyl for my previous car (Astra G), but that was many years ago so it's good to revisit everything :-)

I actually wasn't planning on using the entire space for subwoofers. I am also not sure how easy it would be to make vented boxes when compared to regular, sealed boxes? Furthermore, I was under the impression that vented boxed are usually used for hiphop, not for music like progressive house? I want a clear, precise bass.

Can you please explain this more to me? I do not wish for the bass to "rule the show". I want unity between components, natural equilibrium.

I now saw the link from your post, that you are selling the Hifonics Axi3003 amplifier. That looks like something I could use? I would really like to avoid having 2 amplifiers. The amp seems stable with 450wrms at 2ohms? Even if I add a third woofer in the future, I would still get 600+ rms at 1.3Ohms. Can you confirm this?

So if I use your amp, I could easily run the Helix components + a pair of 8" subwoofers? :-) If so then this is great news! :-)

As for the subwoofers, the Gladen costs 110eurs per piece. That is an okay price. I must however use this opportunity to ask for your opinion about the Helix Esprit e8w subs? They look beautiful to me, but I don't how good they are? Maybe you do? Something about them is attracting me, possibly because they look similar to Aliante and I never got to install that woofer in my previous car.

Can't wait for your reply! :-)

That's what I thought, seeing tutorials like this freshens up the memory and is always helpful in my opinion

Of course using the whole space is not necessary anyway, since only 8" woofers could fit in the front opening and their need for space is significantly less then given in your situation. With two of them you would need about 20-45 liters depending on which model you actually take.

You are right, sealed enclosures are said to have a more precise sound but this is a little too general. There are also ventilated systems that can sound clear and precise, this is a case of tuning the box right to the needs of the subwoofer. Building it is actually not more difficult than a sealed enclosure, except the fact that you have to install a port. But that really is not a problem because it only means to saw another circle into the front plate where you can put in the Aeroport. The calculation can be done here also, if you made your choice for a woofer you could simply ask for a calculation here

PM me about the amplifier if you like, it could really fit to your application, especially when you are aiming to use two subwoofers.

I will have a look at the Helix woofers when I'm back home, then I can also look at the parameters. But it is to be said that a subwoofer should not be chosen only for its look

Haha, indeed. I know that it is silly to choose a sub based on its look, but the enclosure behind the seats "goes down" really fast, so I also like the fact that it is a shallow sub.

After thinking about it a bit longer, I think the best solution is to use 3 Helix Esprit e8w subs and completely seal the space behind the seats. Since your Hifonics amp is stable at 1ohm, it should be able to push all three subs nicely ( I believe the resistance for 3 subs is 1.3 ohms?) That means they would get nearly 600 rms, in theory, and that is quite nice for such a small car. Plus it would look amazing to turn behind and see 3 flat, beautiful subs behind you :-D

I am contacting you about it now! Very happy that you have answered my initial email because I wasn't even aware that such hybrid amps exist! :-)