Techniques To Suppress Mechanical Vibrations

square_wave schrieb:

Theoretically the smaller one (like the symposium roller blocks)will have a smaller point of contact with the cup allowing for micro movements.

This absolutely correct! Still I want to come back the point of my first reply: microscopic movements can only happen with an absolute perfect surface of cup and ball. when you look at the surface of a (CNC)machined piece of metal under the microscope you will see a lot of uneveness. It's full of humps and valleys and very rough. You can imagine that the ball can come over this uneveness only with a certain force. I wonder what kind of sound level (in db) will be able to move so much air that it can pusch the ball with a heavy piece of equipment on it over these humps and valleys.
But I forgot all this achievement by extensive, costly and painfull research, for which scientists of the concerned authority have awarded a patent to the manufacturer, is all only marketing bla bla.

Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Theoretically the smaller one (like the symposium roller blocks)will have a smaller point of contact with the cup allowing for micro movements. This absolutely correct! Still I want to come back the point of my first reply: microscopic movements can only happen with an absolute perfect surface of cup and ball. when you look at the surface of a (CNC)machined piece of metal under the microscope you will see a lot of uneveness. It's full of humps and valleys and very rough. You can imagine that the ball can come over this uneveness only with a certain force. I wonder what kind of sound level (in db) will be able to move so much air that it can pusch the ball with a heavy piece of equipment on it over these humps and valleys. But I forgot all this achievement by extensive, costly and painfull research, for which scientists of the concerned authority have awarded a patent to the manufacturer, is all only marketing bla bla. Jochen

Hi Jochen,
Are there anyone else who makes these balls cup solutions with using micro-refined surfaces which does not cost a bomb like the symposiums ?
High precision tungsten carbide ball-bearings are available in the market. The problem area seems to be the base cup design.

Jochen,

I totally agree with you, that a Very fine polish / smooth surface is required.

Some solutions which use only 1 cup ( at the bottom) recommend the top of the ball to erest against a small piece of glass or a glased bathroom tile. The Glass / bathroom tile fixed to the equipment with Blu Tac.

While a single ball solution is obviously cheaper, it has the disadvantage that the equipment colud roll right off its ball supports ! I guess not recommended for homes with toddlers !

Just to add something else I noticed with Rollerblocks. They seem to work best with Transports (anything that has moving components) and Tubed equipments (DAC, Pre, Power, Integrated) but with Solid states, things can be dicey. I tried them on a Denon Integrated amp and the sound hardened, was a bit brittle...it may work with another solid state but not with this one . So Amp_Nut, I dont think there is any one-size-fits-all product however scientifically 'correct' and advanced it might be. Nature doesnt allow anything to be ideal and somethings have only boolean explanations yes/no...Why, dont ask me .

Thanks for the feedback, Abhi.

Yes, Valve gear, CD Transports and Turntables are believed to be more microphonic, hence more receptive to respond to Vibration tweeks.

Your feedback also validates Jochen & Bombaywalla's suggestions to try and see for ones self.

The reason for the deterioration could be :

1. Simply not a Universal Solution or

2. The System with the Denon Integrated was Fine tuned for 'Synergy' and the Roller blocks destroyed the synergy ...

square_wave schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: square_wave schrieb: Theoretically the smaller one (like the symposium roller blocks)will have a smaller point of contact with the cup allowing for micro movements. This absolutely correct! Still I want to come back the point of my first reply: microscopic movements can only happen with an absolute perfect surface of cup and ball. when you look at the surface of a (CNC)machined piece of metal under the microscope you will see a lot of uneveness. It's full of humps and valleys and very rough. You can imagine that the ball can come over this uneveness only with a certain force. I wonder what kind of sound level (in db) will be able to move so much air that it can pusch the ball with a heavy piece of equipment on it over these humps and valleys. But I forgot all this achievement by extensive, costly and painfull research, for which scientists of the concerned authority have awarded a patent to the manufacturer, is all only marketing bla bla. Jochen Hi Jochen, Are there anyone else who makes these balls cup solutions with using micro-refined surfaces which does not cost a bomb like the symposiums ? High precision tungsten carbide ball-bearings are available in the market. The problem area seems to be the base cup design.

Hi Square,
when I look at the pictures of that catalogue of different decoupling devices for which amp nut had posted the link, then the FIM ball bearing cup looks very much polished. But I don't know if it's the same accuracy that Symbosium gives. But again I think the Roller Blocks are extraordinary because remaining vibration will be absorbed by the aluminium block which itself is filled with another absorbant material. The whole arrangement looks quite ugly though, but that is a different story again
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: goolimangala schrieb: square_wave schrieb: Theoretically the smaller one (like the symposium roller blocks)will have a smaller point of contact with the cup allowing for micro movements. This absolutely correct! Still I want to come back the point of my first reply: microscopic movements can only happen with an absolute perfect surface of cup and ball. when you look at the surface of a (CNC)machined piece of metal under the microscope you will see a lot of uneveness. It's full of humps and valleys and very rough. You can imagine that the ball can come over this uneveness only with a certain force. I wonder what kind of sound level (in db) will be able to move so much air that it can pusch the ball with a heavy piece of equipment on it over these humps and valleys. But I forgot all this achievement by extensive, costly and painfull research, for which scientists of the concerned authority have awarded a patent to the manufacturer, is all only marketing bla bla. Jochen Hi Jochen, Are there anyone else who makes these balls cup solutions with using micro-refined surfaces which does not cost a bomb like the symposiums ? High precision tungsten carbide ball-bearings are available in the market. The problem area seems to be the base cup design. Hi Square, when I look at the pictures of that catalogue of different decoupling devices for which amp nut had posted the link, then the FIM ball bearing cup looks very much polished. But I don't know if it's the same accuracy that Symbosium gives. But again I think the Roller Blocks are extraordinary because remaining vibration will be absorbed by the aluminium block which itself is filled with another absorbant material. The whole arrangement looks quite ugly though, but that is a different story again Jochen

The finite elemente and Fim looks interesting at their price points. I agree the roller blocks seem to have a better/more effective approach. I had checked out the roller blocks. The difference was marginal and was not able to decide if the change was desirable or not. My source is a bit entry level An arcam cd73t.

Symposium also offers a 'JUNIOR" model, which appears to be 50% of the price but actually is almost 25% of the price, because the Junior has 3 PAIRS of cups... its Big daddy has only 3 cups

Geez... US $ 400 for 3 Cups and 3 balls....

Given these prices, there are low cost clones available, which the Symposium site warns against !

Amp_Nut,
I don't know if you are open to reading more on the isolation subject or not but here are a couple threads from Audiogon that might interest you esp. since you were confused about spikes coupling or decoupling (they do both!).

This one seems to have a fight brewing but the info is useful:-
speakers coupled or decoupled?



more info about isolation & someone did ask about spikes later in the thread:-
Mapleshade boards under speakers

Maybe you are already tracking these threads; if so, ignore my post.

OFCOURSE I am open to more reading

Infact I thought posts on this forum to me suggested that I sot reading and theoritising, and get down to trial & error

Thanks for the links...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

OFCOURSE I am open to more reading Infact I thought posts on this forum to me suggested that I sot reading and theoritising, and get down to trial & error Thanks for the links... :prost

LOL, Amp_Nut!
yes, we maintain that you try out the various isolation tweaks in your system to see what suits your components best.
I remembered that you were confused about the spikes theory & thought that you might like to read what others had to say.
After you've read the threads I hope that you are back to tweaking, trial & error??

On a more serious note, we'd (atleast I would) like to hear back from you as to which isolation techniques worked for you & which of the tweaks you experimented with worked as per what you have read in the various forums. Thanks.

Hi Amp_Nut,
just wanted to touch base w/ you re. this topic - have you had the opportunity to try out various isolation tweaks in your system? If yes, which isolation tweaks did you try? And, what were their results w.r.t. what we discussed in this thread?


On a separate note: I managed to get hold of a vibration isolation table for my turntable. This is an active isolation table meaning that it plugs into the AC outlet for power. Inside there are sensors that have a voice-coil (pretty much like a speaker driver) that sense vibrations in the X, Y & Z directions. Also there are motors attached to these sensors & there is a microprocssor inside that tells these motors how much to adjust the table top to keep it level & isolated. The table top is suspended using springs (so the table top jiggles (like very firm jelly) when you poke it). According to the transmissibility curve provided by the manuf (this curve shows where the system's self resonance is & at which freq it provides attenuation) it seems to give ~25dB attenuation at 5Hz & 40dB attenuation at 10Hz. The attenuation is active from 0.6Hz -> 100Hz & then it's passive (meaning that the sensor-motor combination does not provide the attenuation; rather, it's from simple mechanical isolation). This is typical for all such units from other manuf as well.
So, using this vib iso table I am able to isolate very low freq disturbances from the TT including movements of the building structure itself (which is supposed to be in the 2-4Hz region). I can jump up/down near the TT & the tonearm does not budge while playing an LP! (this was not the case before).

bombaywalla schrieb:

I can jump up/down near the TT & the tonearm does not budge while playing an LP! (this was not the case before).

So is this isolation equipment aimed at all kinds of devices or CDP/Transports/Amps..or are they meant for TTs only ?
I suppose CDPs and Amps would have micro vibrations, will this track them down and do the correction ?

Nice going bombaywallaji..saw those active isolation platforms at RMAF..very cool..And yes i couldn't resist jumping up and down trying to make the LEDs blink on thr front panel.

Abhi they can be used for amplifiers and CDPs too..there might be a weight max though which you might want to be aware of.

Thanx!
Like Saavya wrote: these iso devices can be used for any equipment as long as it's less than 160 lbs.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I suppose CDPs and Amps would have micro vibrations, will this track them down and do the correction ?

Just to clarify Abhi: this isolation table is meant to track down external vibrations i.e. vibrations due to building movements, people walking on the floor, jumping children next to your equipment, etc. It nulls those types of vibrations.
If the CDP or amp/preamp has micro-vibrations inside the chassis, this isolation table does NOT track those down (it simply cannot! it cannot sense what's going on inside an electronics' chassis).
Thus, if you have your electronics on a solid concrete slab (which is a very good isolator, you probably do not have any use for this vibration isolation table).

Hi Bombaywalla, Nice to have re-initiated this thread. I had meant to post my learnings....

Had been out for the past 4 days, hence this tardy feedback.

My learnings :

1. goolimangala was right when he told me that a simple SS Ball + Cup arrangement will not make much of an audible difference.

My past experience that Heavy ( approx 15 Kgs or more ) Hi Fi Equipment is best on Spikes and Light weight ones on Polyurathene foam, holds... and that is what is currently on my system.

2. Congrats on getting an active isolation platform. I have always wondered about these, and suspect that they would be practically the ultimate solution for ground isolation.

Would be great if you could post your thoughts / feedback in greater detail ? Which TT and Cartridge are you using ? Have you experimented with a sub-sonic filter for your TT which simply "Monos" the bass ? ( say below 50 Hz ?

Does the Isolation platform even improve the sound of yr CD player ? Pre-Amp ?

While I would LOVE to have a TT, there are almost no LPs available in India......


Bombaywalla said:

Just to clarify Abhi: this isolation table is meant to track down external vibrations i.e. vibrations due to building movements, people walking on the floor, jumping children next to your equipment, etc. It nulls those types of vibrations. If the CDP or amp/preamp has micro-vibrations inside the chassis, this isolation table does NOT track those down (it simply cannot! it cannot sense what's going on inside an electronics' chassis).

I guess that also implies that it will not reduce Air-borne vibrations ( eg Bass energy from the speakers hitting the TT Cover )... ?

Bombaywalla said:

So, using this vib iso table I am able to isolate very low freq disturbances from the TT including movements of the building structure itself (which is supposed to be in the 2-4Hz region). I can jump up/down near the TT & the tonearm does not budge while playing an LP! (this was not the case before).

Incidentally, there was a thread just a short while ago on tnt-audioadicts where the person was suffering from acute LF vibrations, which he susted were from the building and Trucks on the road outside.

To cut a long story short.... seems his Tracking weight was not alligned and the weight was excessive... A simple re-balance, got everything OK !

Hi Bombaywalla,

Congrats on your new toy. Happy to note that ithas made a big improvement in your Vinyl system.

I have no experience with the isolation device you have, but couldnt resist bringing up the vibration reduction system used in Phototgraphy (talking about Pro glasses like 400mm to 600mm lenses). We had the usual vibration of support system, VR (virbration reduction)or IS image stabilisation came out bang ane new problems came up. With a good stable tripod system the VR and IS was at times giving you softer images. The solution was to keep the head loose so that there will be more vibration !!!

Similarly active Isolation device introduced to a reasonably stable platform may make the matter worse.

Regards'
Anil

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Nice to have re-initiated this thread. I had meant to post my learnings.... Had been out for the past 4 days, hence this tardy feedback. My learnings : 1. goolimangala was right when he told me that a simple SS Ball + Cup arrangement will not make much of an audible difference. My past experience that Heavy ( approx 15 Kgs or more ) Hi Fi Equipment is best on Spikes and Light weight ones on Polyurathene foam, holds... and that is what is currently on my system.

Cool! thanx for the feedback & update. I suppose that you will have to find a highly polished cup & ball-bearing like the Symposium type to have it make a diff.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Would be great if you could post your thoughts / feedback in greater detail ? Which TT and Cartridge are you using ? Have you experimented with a sub-sonic filter for your TT which simply "Monos" the bass ? ( say below 50 Hz ?

Thnx!
Since this platform is TT agnostic in that it works for all non-suspended TTs equally well. Hence I'd prefer to leave out the details re. TT & cartridge - it simply clouds the discussion & is immaterial.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Does the Isolation platform even improve the sound of yr CD player ? Pre-Amp ?

yes! This is from what other owners inform me. I, in particular, have not tried it. The platform is too big to fit on a shelf other than the top-most (which is for the TT).

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I guess that also implies that it will not reduce Air-borne vibrations ( eg Bass energy from the speakers hitting the TT Cover )... ?

That is precisely why I did not buy the TT cover option when I bought my TT! When I used to own the MMF5, I used to remove the TT cover during playback, again, for the same reason.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla said: So, using this vib iso table I am able to isolate very low freq disturbances from the TT including movements of the building structure itself (which is supposed to be in the 2-4Hz region). I can jump up/down near the TT & the tonearm does not budge while playing an LP! (this was not the case before). Incidentally, there was a thread just a short while ago on tnt-audioadicts where the person was suffering from acute LF vibrations, which he susted were from the building and Trucks on the road outside. To cut a long story short.... seems his Tracking weight was not alligned and the weight was excessive... A simple re-balance, got everything OK !

I see! Yes, vinyl playback is sensitive to VTF & if not set correctly for the cartridge used, the results could be sub-par or worse. So, I'm not surprised.
I've a digital weighing scale & ensure that the VTF is correct about 2 times a year. That seems to sufficient - it rarely needs any adjustment when I re-check it.

ani schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Congrats on your new toy. Happy to note that ithas made a big improvement in your Vinyl system. I have no experience with the isolation device you have, but couldnt resist bringing up the vibration reduction system used in Phototgraphy (talking about Pro glasses like 400mm to 600mm lenses). We had the usual vibration of support system, VR (virbration reduction)or IS image stabilisation came out bang ane new problems came up. With a good stable tripod system the VR and IS was at times giving you softer images. The solution was to keep the head loose so that there will be more vibration !!! Similarly active Isolation device introduced to a reasonably stable platform may make the matter worse. Regards' Anil

Thanx!

Anil, I *think* that I understand what's going on w.r.t. your 400-600mm camera lenses: with a good tripod to reduce the vibrations you basically have a passive vibration control system. So, even with the best tripod, there is bound to be some residue vibration.
Now, if the lenses is screwed tight to the body, what's happening? The residue vibration is getting tightly coupled to the lens & you would get a jittery pix.
What would happen if you would keep the head loose? The coupling of the lens to the camera body is weak thereby providing more isolation to the lens. Hence, a better pix.

In the case of the *non-suspended* TT (which is what I have), the tonearm needs to be tightly coupled to the TT platform so that the tonearm is secure otherwise it would mistrack. Hence, each time the TT picks up a mech vibration, it gets coupled to the tonearm very efficiently. This ruins the overall sound. Thus, if the TT could somehow be isolated from the mech vibrations, it would allow the tonearm to track better.
Using your camera analog - the TT is the camera body & the tonearm is the lens. I do not have the luxury to "keep the head loose" like you can in a camera. The cartridge would mistrack a lot.
Somehow I need to prevent the mech vib from getting into the TT. That's the premise of the vib iso table.

HI Bombaywalla,
You are partly right regarding residual vibration getting to camera when tightly coupled to support. The main issue was due to over correction by the Vibration reduction sytem to minute but high acceleration pulses, sort of under damped control system (overshoot). This made the VR system unpredictable on a stable platform, but god given when shooting from a monopod or vehicles.

I was hoping no such issues crop up with active isolation platforms. My TT is also a non-supended RPM10 with their isolation platform, it is filled with iron filings and sounds very dead when tapped. I am lucky to have concrete floor (ground floor room), heavy stand placed almost 12 feet away from speakers and most of all a house far away in a remote village where the nearest truck plying road is half a kilometer away

Regards
Anil

HI ani,

I agree with what you say... often the TT is engineered as an assembly. The Lin Sondeck, a suspended sub chassis design, was built with certain elements that would appear as non ideal, simply because the TT sounded better as a Whole....

Over enthu DIYers often substituted some elements, in the hope that the change would result in better sound, and were were surprised with results to the contrary....

Bombaywalla said:

Amp_Nut wrote: Would be great if you could post your thoughts / feedback in greater detail ? Which TT and Cartridge are you using ? Have you experimented with a sub-sonic filter for your TT which simply "Monos" the bass ? ( say below 50 Hz ? Thnx! Since this platform is TT agnostic in that it works for all non-suspended TTs equally well. Hence I'd prefer to leave out the details re. TT & cartridge - it simply clouds the discussion & is immaterial.

Oops ! I did not know that this was confidential info. Sorry if I hit a RAW Nerve !

The reason that I asked those questions is because I DO believe that TT design ( eg Suspended or Non-Suspended) DO respond differently to vibrations.

You had not mentioned ( untill my query) that your TT was non-suspended.

Likewise, Cartridges are suspetible to not only mech rumble pick up, but some are rather prone to even picking up 50Hz stray fields from the TT motor !

Poor cartridge LF response may not even pass on the rumble of the magnitude that is present, and the audiophile sometimes wonders why TT rumble has suddenly reared its head in a system, when only the cartridge was changed !

Just want to clarify why I asked what I asked...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla said: Amp_Nut wrote: Would be great if you could post your thoughts / feedback in greater detail ? Which TT and Cartridge are you using ? Have you experimented with a sub-sonic filter for your TT which simply "Monos" the bass ? ( say below 50 Hz ? Thnx! Since this platform is TT agnostic in that it works for all non-suspended TTs equally well. Hence I'd prefer to leave out the details re. TT & cartridge - it simply clouds the discussion & is immaterial. Oops ! I did not know that this was confidential info. Sorry if I hit a RAW Nerve ! The reason that I asked those questions is because I DO believe that TT design ( eg Suspended or Non-Suspended) DO respond differently to vibrations. You had not mentioned ( untill my query) that your TT was non-suspended. Likewise, Cartridges are suspetible to not only mech rumble pick up, but some are rather prone to even picking up 50Hz stray fields from the TT motor ! Poor cartridge LF response may not even pass on the rumble of the magnitude that is present, and the audiophile sometimes wonders why TT rumble has suddenly reared its head in a system, when only the cartridge was changed ! Just want to clarify why I asked what I asked... :)

Hey Amp_Nut that info is not confidential! Thanx for clarifying why you asked what you asked - I see now why you asked.
Re. the TT: I thought that I had mentioned that it was non-suspended but it seems not. sorry, that should have been stated from my side.
Re. the cartridge: it's a Benz L2 (0.4mV). I believe that it's a sound cartridge that does not pick up stray motor fields & despite it's very good LF response does not allow TT rumble to rear it's ugly head.