Techniques To Suppress Mechanical Vibrations

As a first step in my learning, can someone explain to me, WHY / HOW Sharp (& Hard metal) Pointed feet are the best way ( ?? ) to reduce induced vibrations into the equipment ?

Or

Is it better to use the Soft Rubber ( Sorbothane ) feet or Cut-In-Half tenis balls ?

Interesting discussion

I think there are 3 types of vibrations to be taken care of:

1.Airborne vibrations (typically caused by the vibrating cone of the loudspeakers)

2.Vibration that travel through the floor into the platform holding the gear.

3.Vibration that originate from the equipment itself. It travels into the platform holding the gear.

Hello Amp_Nut,
Even though my invlovement with isolation and vibration damping has been passive, I still have something to share with you. As most other concerned audiophiles, I too have been using cones, squash balls (cut into half and sometimes as is), MDF, Granite and Slate slabs and my equipment rack is a teak wood framed with MDF shelves.

So, I have been using all this just to be happy that I am not careless about the isolation thing. I have never ever found any significant "improvement" in sound using all these .
Yes, there are little changes here and there, using soft squash ball feets have resulted in a slightly thicker but less cleaner presentation etc etc...
So I clearly did not believe a lot in isolation till I used a Symposium Roller Block Series2 couple of weeks back.
It absolutely changed my perception about isolation .
Those three balls placed under my transport or my preamp does add a significant improvement to the way music is presented.
I was lucky that some one by chance lent me to try them and I for one kept it unused for next couple of days just because I knew nothing is going to happen.
But one morning I was listening to some devotional songs and I thought of using them for fun....and you know what...I immediately knew my bank balance is going to reduce . I was happy as well as sad...because I have to buy them now!!!

I was lent two sets of it...first I tried one under the transport...and yes that did set the tone for me. I was hearing the same tones but now they have their own space in the stage...each instrument was defined with very clear attack and decay (I never knew I was missing all these).
Bass was not only tighter but more tuneful and enjoyble.
The highs were sweeter or should I say lot more real.
Vocals again got separated from the cloud around it.
It just works Man!!!

Just when I was thinking, I was all set, I tried another pair of under the preamp and YES!!! There is another layer of cleanliness added. The backgrounds are even blacker, the tones even more clear and real.

Sir, I bought both the pairs even though at the first instance I had assumed that I will not be buying them even if they are good because they are "expensive". I bought two pairs, because when I remove them, I cannot accept the sound any more!!
Try them if you can...

P.S It does all this without changing the tonality at all!!

square wave said:

I think there are 3 types of vibrations to be taken care of: 1.Airborne vibrations (typically caused by the vibrating cone of the loudspeakers) 2.Vibration that travel through the floor into the platform holding the gear. 3.Vibration that originate from the equipment itself. It travels into the platform holding the gear.

VERY well defined. A GREAT beginning.


Can you take that line of thought further an elaborate on which of these you feel is more significant ?

Given the relatively large surface area of Hi Fi equipment, I would thinkthat Airborne Vibrations would play the most havoc.. No ?

However, most websites point to Point 2 as the main villian.

Can someone help with reasoning on this ?

Much appreciated.

abhi.pani said:

So I clearly did not believe a lot in isolation till I used a Symposium Roller Block Series2 couple of weeks back. It absolutely changed my perception about isolation . Those three balls placed under my transport or my preamp does add a significant improvement to the way music is presented. I was lucky that some one by chance lent me to try them and I for one kept it unused for next couple of days just because I knew nothing is going to happen. But one morning I was listening to some devotional songs and I thought of using them for fun....and you know what...I immediately knew my bank balance is going to reduce . I was happy as well as sad...because I have to buy them now!!! I was lent two sets of it...first I tried one under the transport...and yes that did set the tone for me. I was hearing the same tones but now they have their own space in the stage...each instrument was defined with very clear attack and decay (I never knew I was missing all these). Bass was not only tighter but more tuneful and enjoyble. The highs were sweeter or should I say lot more real. Vocals again got separated from the cloud around it. It just works Man!!!

The Symposium Roller Blocks are CERTAINLY what I have my eye on.

http://www.symposiumusa.com/rollerblocks.html

They are simple but in-appropriately expensive.

Hence I am getting 24 Cups machined from Stainless Steel.

Neither dimensions or finer details are being copied. I simply do not have access to them ! ( Anti-piracy Vigilante - Please note )

Hopefully, I should have them in a couple of weeks ... lets see, but I want to know / explore other alternates too...

Abhi, you using a double stack of the roller balls ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

As a first step in my learning, can someone explain to me, WHY / HOW Sharp (& Hard metal) Pointed feet are the best way ( ?? ) to reduce induced vibrations into the equipment ?

The way I understood this is that the spikes act as diodes (you'll understand this electronics reference! ). The larger flat surface is connected to the bottom of the equipment to "collect" the vibrations & then "drain" them into the rack away from the equipment. The pointy/spike end is in connection w/ the rack & it appears to be a "high impedance" point for the vibrations wanting to go thru the spike into the electronics. Needless to say these vibrations find some other lower impedance point to wreak their havoc.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Or Is it better to use the Soft Rubber ( Sorbothane ) feet or Cut-In-Half tenis balls ? :?

The soft, squishy sorbothane & not-so rigid tennis balls seem to impart exactly those characteristics to the sound - soft, squishy & not-so-rigid.
These energy absorbing elements seem to do much better for platform isolation rather than equipment isolation.
For TTs a sandwich of cup-squash ball-cup seems to work like an air platform.
Bicycle tube works the same way but in a MDF piece-bicycle tube-MDF piece sandwich. If you use a bicycle tube directly under the electronics or TT you end up getting soft, squishy & not-so-rigid (loose bass) sonics.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

square wave said: I think there are 3 types of vibrations to be taken care of: 1.Airborne vibrations (typically caused by the vibrating cone of the loudspeakers) 2.Vibration that travel through the floor into the platform holding the gear. 3.Vibration that originate from the equipment itself. It travels into the platform holding the gear. VERY well defined. A GREAT beginning. Can you take that line of thought further an elaborate on which of these you feel is more significant ? Given the relatively large surface area of Hi Fi equipment, I would thinkthat Airborne Vibrations would play the most havoc.. No ? However, most websites point to Point 2 as the main villian. Can someone help with reasoning on this ? Much appreciated. :hail

Indeed Sq-wave has pointed out the 3 mechanizms of vibration that need to be taken care of.

Air is very hard to compress so air-borne vibrations do not have much energy in them at the music levels we play in a home environment. Plus, (just as sound travels farther in water than in air), the vibrations travelling thru a solid medium retain their amplitude longer than those travelling thru a fluid medium (air). Hence floor-borne, wall-borne vibrations are the bigger culprit.

(as a side note, custom-made listening rooms, recording rooms, HT rooms often use differential materials technology i.e. materials of different compositions to suppress structure-borne vibrations because different materials allow different frequencies to pass thru them & suppress different frequencies. Also, when these materials of different compositions are bolted together it creates a sharp discontinuity & the structure-borne vibrations need to have enough energy to jump over this discontinuity to carry on into the next material. So, this discontinuity looks just like a dead-end on a paved road - you have to brake hard to avoid going off-road & then all you can do is a U-turn & head back.
Additionally, if the structure-borne vibrations did have sufficient energy to jump the discontinuity, the next material might not be favourable to that (or those) frequency (or frequencies) hence the vibration will die out - amplitude reduces to negligible - as it propagates).

Amp_Nut schrieb:

abhi.pani said: So I clearly did not believe a lot in isolation till I used a Symposium Roller Block Series2 couple of weeks back. It absolutely changed my perception about isolation . Those three balls placed under my transport or my preamp does add a significant improvement to the way music is presented. I was lucky that some one by chance lent me to try them and I for one kept it unused for next couple of days just because I knew nothing is going to happen. But one morning I was listening to some devotional songs and I thought of using them for fun....and you know what...I immediately knew my bank balance is going to reduce . I was happy as well as sad...because I have to buy them now!!! I was lent two sets of it...first I tried one under the transport...and yes that did set the tone for me. I was hearing the same tones but now they have their own space in the stage...each instrument was defined with very clear attack and decay (I never knew I was missing all these). Bass was not only tighter but more tuneful and enjoyble. The highs were sweeter or should I say lot more real. Vocals again got separated from the cloud around it. It just works Man!!! The Symposium Roller Blocks are CERTAINLY what I have my eye on. http://www.symposiumusa.com/rollerblocks.html They are simple but in-appropriately expensive. Hence I am getting 24 Cups machined from Stainless Steel. Neither dimensions or finer details are being copied. I simply do not have access to them ! ( Anti-piracy Vigilante - Please note ) Hopefully, I should have them in a couple of weeks ... lets see, but I want to know / explore other alternates too...

In my opinion, copying these rollerballs by just getting something machined from stainless steel is a waste of money. The idea behind the roller balls is mainly to compensate vibration that comes from within the room (air, floor, wall) and then divert the remaining vibration into an absorbant material (aircraft aluminium combined with another acousticly absorbant material). The metal used for the ball is tungsten, a metal with a high transmissivity, sometimes also called as acoustical impedance (bombaywalla you are right ) Steel has a relatively poor transmissivity compared to tungsten or aircraft aluminium, which is a special alloy developed to transmit vibration. Further cup and ball are polished to mirror finish, specified at 6 microns. Only on a suface like this the ball will be able to make microscopic movements to compensate airborne vibration. Machined steel (even when it's CNC machined) will have such rough surface that microscopic movements will not be possible. Therefore your rollerblock will just perform like a normal spike or cone...diverting resonances from your hifi gear into the ground. And for that you would not have chosen the best material. Aircarft aluminium, or even normal aluminium which you can buy in the market, would perform better. And making a simple cone out of it will be cheaper then a CNC-machined sphere and cup.
String suspension is a very effective way of getting rid of vibration and resonances. Shiva uses a very nice and effective device like this under his CDP. You should look into this possibility too.

Jochen

Hi Jochen,

Thanks for your inputs.

Yes, the Symposium site does make a GREAT deal about the construction of these blocks.... while there ARE valid points such as the fine finish of the cups and the ball material ( My guess is that these will add the last 10% of the performance, NOT 100% of the performance ! ). The rest IMHO is marketing "Yada-Yada' to disuade others from machining similar products at a FRACTION of their asking prices.

While I am receptive to the Tungsten Ball material, I believe the Aircart Grade AL being better than SS is again Yada-Yada and hype. SS is EXTREMELY expensive to machine ( more that aircraft grade Al) and I suspect the milling facility is an aircraft part manufacturer, so they simply use what is at hand !

( There are a lot of aircraft component manfacturers, twidling their thumbs, looking for work... Krell gets jobs done from them, since they are located in the vicinity, and dont forget SPARK - Caylin's manuafacturer ... )

Roller ball supports apparently improve the sound, when placed under ANY Equipment. A Double Block (set of 3 ) will cost about US $ 500. Multiply that cost for my system for CD player + Pre + + 2 Power Amps + 2 Speakers... That is US $ 2500... and still you have not isolated in the verticla plane ( More on that later ). hence I though of getting my own machined...

String suspension is a very effective way of getting rid of vibration and resonances. Shiva uses a very nice and effective device like this under his CDP. You should look into this possibility too.

Yes, I have wanted to look at this. My concern is that the String / elastic should not loose its full elasticity under the load, infact it should not be anywhere near its full extension. That will ensure that vibrations dont travel thru the string.

My CD Player weighs probably 3x as much as my pre... so each pice of equipment will need different strings ? ( In terms of their Elasticity, or number of strings used )...

Sivat, your advice please ?

bombaywalla, what I understand is that Cones can be used either way, pointed down or pointed up, with the SAME results as long as the point is making contact with a Hard material. You can try this for your self.

Hence if your equipment is on a wooden shelf, you dont want the spikes to pierce the wood. Not only will they ruin the looks of the shelf, but after piercing, will not make a POINT CONTACT with the surface.

They are USUALLY not placed spiking the bottom of expensive equipment, to save the equipment from dents and scratches ( Lower resale value ! )

Hence I am Not Convinced, that Cone acts as Mechanical diodes. IMHO they simply provide isolation between the equipment and the surface that it is resting on, by use of a point ( High Impedance ! ) contact.

They do NOT dissipate the vibrations in the Hi Fi equipment...

( I will post my thoughts on dissipating mechanical enery / mech shocks and vibrations, its simple, not rocket science.)

bombaywala said :

The soft, squishy sorbothane & not-so rigid tennis balls seem to impart exactly those characteristics to the sound - soft, squishy & not-so-rigid. These energy absorbing elements seem to do much better for platform isolation rather than equipment isolation.

Sir, If soft supports do this ( which I concurr that they DO ) then they are adding their own massive colorations, rather than removing what is to be removed

Its just adding a new colouration and seeing if you like the new coloured sound... NO ?

I dont see why Cut-In-Half balls are so widely recommended...

I have experienced that isolation works differently with different equipment. What makes a CDP sound good does not necessarily work on a power amp.

The best isolation devices for my DVD player were the relatively inexpensive vibrapods. These were effective on my preamp too but it sounds much better with the Finite Ceraballs while my earlier power amp (Electrocompaniet) sounded best with no isolation.

For the Cadence power amps, I am making my own isolation devices based on others I have used and seen. They will comprise of a diamond tipped cone and a ceramic ball. Will let you know how it goes.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Jochen, Thanks for your inputs. Yes, the Symposium site does make a GREAT deal about the construction of these blocks.... while there ARE valid points such as the fine finish of the cups and the ball material ( My guess is that these will add the last 10% of the performance, NOT 100% of the performance ! ). The rest IMHO is marketing "Yada-Yada' to disuade others from machining similar products at a FRACTION of their asking prices. While I am receptive to the Tungsten Ball material, I believe the Aircart Grade AL being better than SS is again Yada-Yada and hype. SS is EXTREMELY expensive to machine ( more that aircraft grade Al) and I suspect the milling facility is an aircraft part manufacturer, so they simply use what is at hand ! ( There are a lot of aircraft component manfacturers, twidling their thumbs, looking for work... Krell gets jobs done from them, since they are located in the vicinity, and dont forget SPARK - Caylin's manuafacturer ... ) Roller ball supports apparently improve the sound, when placed under ANY Equipment. A Double Block (set of 3 ) will cost about US $ 500. Multiply that cost for my system for CD player + Pre + + 2 Power Amps + 2 Speakers... That is US $ 2500... and still you have not isolated in the verticla plane ( More on that later ). hence I though of getting my own machined... String suspension is a very effective way of getting rid of vibration and resonances. Shiva uses a very nice and effective device like this under his CDP. You should look into this possibility too. Yes, I have wanted to look at this. My concern is that the String / elastic should not loose its full elasticity under the load, infact it should not be anywhere near its full extension. That will ensure that vibrations dont travel thru the string. My CD Player weighs probably 3x as much as my pre... so each pice of equipment will need different strings ? ( In terms of their Elasticity, or number of strings used )... Sivat, your advice please ?

Before starting the production of my rack which I exported to Germany I did a lot of research about decoupling, materials and so forth. I also copied the roller balls and made them out of stainless steel (I could not find anybody who was able to work with tungsten) but without mirror polish and the alloy base. I personally could not hear any difference between these copied roller balls and SS cones. But what difference I was able to hear was between these copied roller balls & SS cones and my Etalon cones which are made of aircraft AL. I can also hear a difference between these Etalon cones and cones of the same dimension, but made out of normal aluminium. I finally ended up with magnetic decoupling of the absorber platform. With that my CDP here in India sounded best. Unfortunately this kind of decoupling can not be used for heavy amps.

Why I have written all this is to persuade you to first do some auditioning of different devices and materials before spending a big amount for the copied roller balls. Of course the amount will not be as big as the price for the originals. If you find that the roller balls are doing their job best...then of course go ahead.

Regarding string suspension there are also different devices available in the market. Some work with nylon strings, nylon nets, steel strings and rubber O-rings (Siva's system) All will do their job but all will make your hifi gear perform differntly. So again auditioning is the only way to find out what suits your ears best.

Jochen

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hence I am Not Convinced, that Cone acts as Mechanical diodes. IMHO they simply provide isolation between the equipment and the surface that it is resting on, by use of a point contact. They do NOT dissipate the vibrations in the Hi Fi equipment... :(

The above is as per my experience as well..the material of the cones also does have an impact.they do not dissipate but isolate to some extent.

regarding suspension, I also use the same one ie the solidsteel feet of silence. i used to think it did a fantastic job untill i tried abhis rollerblock the bases tightened up like anything..and they worked both under the cdp as well as under the amp.

this whole discussion on vibration is really interesting. my feeling is materials perhaps make a bigger impact than anything else. the material of the component, of the base it is resting as well as the coupling all need to synergise.

a very nice article here
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html

while air vibrations cannot be controlled its impact on components can be reduced by a combination of isolation and intrinsic internal bracing. this impacts tube equipment and transports the most.

this is based purely on my understanding /experience and i may very well be wrong ..so looking for more info on this

BTW many of the articles we read in reviews etc are from a US perspective which has wooden flooring at home..vibrations are very different in nature there and need different kind of racks in comparison with Concrete/tiled rooms in india

What I use is Solid Tech's feet of silence. The advantage - it provides a more three dimensional isolation, compared to a two-dimensional isolation provided by roller ball. Do try...if possible.

Regards
Siva.

You need to have a heavy rack (assuming you are keeping multiple equipments on the same rack)..but it needs to open out on all sides. Do not build a stand that has closed enclosure on any side. So it would mean making a stand only with "Pillars" on either 3 or 4 sides.

Also, it helps to ensure that racks are not very tall...keep it between 2.5 to 3 feet max (height)

Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

What I use is Solid Tech's feet of silence. The advantage - it provides a more three dimensional isolation, compared to a two-dimensional isolation provided by roller ball. Do try...if possible. Regards Siva.

Siva you are right. Rollerblocks do move only in horizontal direction. Whereas string and magnetic suspension allows three dimensional movement. One more(theoretical) disadvantage I see with rollerballs is that the heavier the equipment on the balls the less the balls will be able to perform these microscopic movements.

Jochen

sivat schrieb:

You need to have a heavy rack (assuming you are keeping multiple equipments on the same rack)..but it needs to open out on all sides. Do not build a stand that has closed enclosure on any side. So it would mean making a stand only with "Pillars" on either 3 or 4 sides. Also, it helps to ensure that racks are not very tall...keep it between 2.5 to 3 feet max (height) Regards Siva.

Siva all racks which I have built sofar (I'm just breaking my head for a new rack) were also open on all sides. On the other hand in a closed rack the equipment will not be exposed so much to airborne vibration. I experience that always with my TT. It sounds much better with the lid closed as it has it's place quite close to the speaker. I know, not ideal for any hifi equipment and especally not for a turntable. But there is no other way.

goolimangala schrieb:

Siva you are right. Rollerblocks do move only in horizontal direction. Whereas string and magnetic suspension allows three dimensional movement. One more(theoretical) disadvantage I see with rollerballs is that the heavier the equipment on the balls the less the balls will be able to perform these microscopic movements. Jochen

Jochen, that is theory :). in practice i replaced my feet of silence beneath my transport with rollerblocks and the bass tightened noticeably..i did not feel there was a negative impact on the sound in anyother way..abhi if you remember do post.

Arj schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: Siva you are right. Rollerblocks do move only in horizontal direction. Whereas string and magnetic suspension allows three dimensional movement. One more(theoretical) disadvantage I see with rollerballs is that the heavier the equipment on the balls the less the balls will be able to perform these microscopic movements. Jochen Jochen, that is theory :). in practice i replaced my feet of silence beneath my transport with rollerblocks and the bass tightened noticeably..i did not feel there was a negative impact on the sound in anyother way..abhi if you remember do post.

Very much possible, Arj. Hard coupling very often results in tighter bass and overall "faster" performance. But that might not work with all equipment. That's why I always say you have to really try it out and try all possibilities available. That's what I recommended to amp nut also.

Do you own the original rollerblocks or the copies which are available here in Bangalore. If you own the originals I would love to try them and compare with other devices. Would that be possible?
Thanks,
Jochen

Jochen i only have the FOS. the rollerblocks were abhis.

your comment on coupling is enlightening. i actually have half cut squashballs below a wooden board and have the FOS on top of that ...maybe that is where the problem is.

Arj schrieb:

Jochen i only have the FOS. the rollerblocks were abhis. your comment on coupling is enlightening. i actually have half cut squashballs below a wooden board and have the FOS on top of that ...maybe that is where the problem is.

probably. Just try it out!

Thanks guys for sharing and creating a great pool of ideas and experiences.

Jochem, thanks for your comments based on actual experience, that Aircraft Grade Al is the best. Experience is Always the best teacher.

Siva, thanks for your comments too.

Some posts have mentioned the need for Synergy between Vibration cancellation and the equipment used..... I am going to stick my neck out... with an antiView ...

IMHO, in this case, Synergy is simply a sugar coated word for COMPROMISE !

Many Vibration control devices perform well in a certain aspect only, and leave other aspects un-addressed, or even mess up in some aspects.

As Siva pointed out, Isolation needs to be in the Horizontal AND Vertical directions. Roller Ball, provide only Horizontal isolation...

Take the example of Isolation shelves. Some have used Granite under their TTs, and liked the sound.... actually they have liked the colouration introduced by granite. Sound and rational scientific thinking fails to show how granite can dissipate vibrations. As most it can itseld be stimulated by the vibration, absorb the incomming vibration's energy and resonate with that enery at a different frequency. If that does not resonate with your system, LUCKY You ! If you like the new sound of vibration, Lucky you too.... but to a smaller extent.. But the problem has not been solved.

That is similar to using inexpensive Interconnects, and looking for 'Synergy'. Each have their characteristics, and it if floats your boat .... buy it. But those interconnects are NOT Transparent or Neutral. If your system cannot sense the colourations that the cable introduces, or that the coloration is personally pleasant, we call the system and cables "Synergestic' !


Beyond a certain entry performance level, one should look for products that perform their 'magic' in ALL systems. Then we know that they are doing their job honestly

If a Vibration solution worked with one amp and not with another, then it was most probably a colouration that you liked, not cleaning up vibration...

At Best, it shifted the vibration frequency, to one that your system did not respond to. That situation will change the minute you cange an mechanical parametr in your system. Its like a crocodile lying hidden in the mud, ready to bite off anyone than comes in its range..


My experience has been that Sorbothane feet sound good under lower mass equipment, rather than heavier weigt hardware. This points me to being suspicious, and the truth will probably emerge when a truly genuine solution (like the roller balls ) is deployed. They work on EVERY Equipment. PERIOD.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Some have used Granite under their TTs, and liked the sound.... actually they have liked the colouration introduced by granite.

Do you really think that for example Brinkmann TTs and amps sound coloured? IMHO I have never in my life heard more neutral sounding equipment than that developed by Helmut Brinkmann. As you might know granite is part of all Brinkmann gear. If I am wrong then I wonder what's the meaning of neutrality .

Jochen

Jochen said:

Do you really think that for example Brinkmann TTs and amps sound coloured? IMHO I have never in my life heard more neutral sounding equipment than that developed by Helmut Brinkmann. As you might know granite is part of all Brinkmann gear.

I was referring to EXTERNAL Granite slabs used as equipment shelves, bought and installed by the individual audiophile. If the Granite is part of a Tuned mechanical system, its a different matter altogether.

I am not familiar with Brinkmann products.

If they use Granite and achieve good results, then their design approach is that of using Massive Mass : A 'Brute Force' - Infinite-Mass-Will-Damp-everything approach.

Tough to implement perfectly, since its tough to achieve infinite mass, and "absolute' solidity.

I suspect that these products are fussy about their setup, and if Vibrations DO get into them, it would be hard to remove.

I JUST did a quick Google on these Turntable's setup.

Here is what an Audiogon thread yielded :

http://forum.audiogo...keyw&zzmicro%20seiki

08-15-05: Brizonbiovizier Also the brinkmann and yorke both need air suspension supports to give their best as they are non suspended. Were the racks used of this type? Without them the sound quality goes down dramatically.

and

08-17-05: Brizonbiovizier No I am not a dealer, if I was I would have said. Yes there is a special base - the HRS - but that is meant to go onto the top of an air support platform still! Even Granite transmits resonance! In addition the HRS is recommended by the american dealer network. I have spoken to Brinkmann and he recommends the vibraplane type approach. In addition my friend has a yorke - with the granite base - and I can also assure that this also works better on a townshend. Yorke also recommends placing the granite base (supplied with the deck) on a vibraplane. By turning off the air suspension you can judge the difference with and without. It is tremendous and takes the Brinkmann to a whole new level, as was intended from its construction. If you then fit an airtangent (for fair comparison with the microseiki) it will again be transformed. You have to compare both decks like for like on the appropriate support. I suspect things will then look very different.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Jochen said: Do you really think that for example Brinkmann TTs and amps sound coloured? IMHO I have never in my life heard more neutral sounding equipment than that developed by Helmut Brinkmann. As you might know granite is part of all Brinkmann gear. I was referring to EXTERNAL Granite slabs used as equipment shelves, bought and installed by the individual audiophile. If the Granite is part of a Tuned mechanical system, its a different matter altogether. I am not familiar with Brinkmann products. If they use Granite and achieve good results, then their design approach is that of using Massive Mass : A 'Brute Force' - Infinite-Mass-Will-Damp-everything approach. Tough to implement perfectly, since its tough to achieve infinite mass, and "absolute' solidity. I suspect that these products are fussy about their setup, and if Vibrations DO get into them, it would be hard to remove. I JUST did a quick Google on these Turntable's setup. Here is what an Audiogon thread yielded : http://forum.audiogo...keyw&zzmicro%20seiki 08-15-05: Brizonbiovizier Also the brinkmann and yorke both need air suspension supports to give their best as they are non suspended. Were the racks used of this type? Without them the sound quality goes down dramatically. and 08-17-05: Brizonbiovizier No I am not a dealer, if I was I would have said. Yes there is a special base - the HRS - but that is meant to go onto the top of an air support platform still! Even Granite transmits resonance! In addition the HRS is recommended by the american dealer network. I have spoken to Brinkmann and he recommends the vibraplane type approach. In addition my friend has a yorke - with the granite base - and I can also assure that this also works better on a townshend. Yorke also recommends placing the granite base (supplied with the deck) on a vibraplane. By turning off the air suspension you can judge the difference with and without. It is tremendous and takes the Brinkmann to a whole new level, as was intended from its construction. If you then fit an airtangent (for fair comparison with the microseiki) it will again be transformed. You have to compare both decks like for like on the appropriate support. I suspect things will then look very different.

The Townshend will lift any mass-TT to another level. Because such set-up just combines the positives of both worlds. That is known. I would not be too sure if it would also work with a pure suspended deck like the LP12 or a combined deck like SME 20 and 30 or the upcoming Einstein TT. Regarding Simon Yorke I am surprised that this guy says this deck comes with a granite platform as base. All SYs I have seen sofar had a slate slab as base. And slate is again totally different thing than granit, sonically I mean.
What I think one should not be too prejudiced against certain materials, only because some jounalists and dealers almost preach against those materials. For example I do not have a proper rack for my system here in India. I hope this will change soon. On my makeshift rack I am keeping presently 4 cms thick granite slabs as a base for my equipment. Comparing granite with MDF and solid teak wood I found my system playing much more agile. So the granite slabs remained.

Maybe Im speaking in riddles. me state my thinking on Isolation and Vibration control of Stereo components. This is based on what I have read to be the most scientifically plausible explanations. In no way are these ABSOLUTE Beliefs for me, and if I can get better explanations / approaches, I am certainly open... that is the purpose of this tread, to better my understanding of this topic, which is often followed as Dictates....

A. As Square Wave has Very Categorically said :

I think there are 3 types of vibrations to be taken care of: 1.Airborne vibrations (typically caused by the vibrating cone of the loudspeakers) 2.Vibration that travel through the floor into the platform holding the gear. 3.Vibration that originate from the equipment itself. It travels into the platform holding the gear.

B. ISOLATION:

Its an effort to keep one source of vibration from affecting another component.

eg : Isolating a Turntable from being affected by vibration that travels through the floor.

I believe that Spikes under equipment are Isolators. They prevent (minimise) vibration from the floor from reaching the equipment. They also minimise vibration from one equipment from reaching another ( eg Vibration from the Speakers from reaching the CD player.

Isolators DO NOT stop, or prevent vibrations. The source of vibration will continue unabated, possiobly affecting its own performance.


************************

I would like to take a break from this topic briefly and take the analogy of Crash resistance and Crash survival in cars....

In the 50s, Cars were built Massively. The approach ( besides opulent size) was to make them as strong and heavy as possible ... like battle tanks ... to survive a crash.

When these cars cars hit something they ( the cars ! ) did not dent much.

Note that the ENERGY of ANY collision MUST be dissipated. The cars were built so solidly that they wrecked everything else... the object they hit ( if it was not as massive os a car ) and the occupants in the car, received a full dose of the Impact (Vibration).

The current design approach to building cars is that the Cars are built light and have "Crumple Zones" These parts of the car are designed to cruple in a crash and expend the energy of Impact, while the occupant are safe.

That is why we see cars "Totalled" in a crash, but occcipants surviving.

The key is to ensure that the Energy is Diispated safely, without advese effect.

The earlier 'Massive Build - Brute Force' approach was deadly, if the Massive build was not massive enough for the situation. Back to the drawing board and build the next one Even More Massive ! That approach is not popular any more .... atleast with cars.

*********************************

Back to our Stereos:

Roller Balls take the approach of DISSIPATING the vibration energy, so that the energy does not cause disturbances.

The Vibrations on a Stereo component will be BOTH - Horizontal & Vertical Vibrations. ( Angular Vibrations are a mix of Horizontal and vertical )

The Roller balls ALLOW the entire Component ( eg CD player) to rock on its roller ball feet, and DISSIPATE the Vibration energy.

In addition, an almost perfect Point Contact is created between the VERY Hard material ball and the VERY finely polished surface, provide isolation also.

The Very fine polish & hard ball which will not suffer micro dents, also permits micro oscillations for energy dissipation, improving results.

The limitations of the Roller Ball approach is that the ball ONLY rolls HORIZONTALLY.

The VERTICAL Vibrations are not addressed and dissipated.

Strings, Springs, Cycle Tubes etc typically address Verical vibrations, and are often recommended in conjunction with Roller balls.


To summarise, my take is that for truly effective Vibration control, there MUST be a mechanism to Dissipate the vibration energy. Dissipation CANCELS Vibrations.... Massive Mass can only attenuate Vibrations.

To touch on turntables ...,. the other approach to Massive Weight is the Suspended Sub-chasis design a-la- AR and Linn. The Suspended designs are suspended from springs, allowing them to vibrate and dissipate vibrational energy.

They reportedly sound QUITE different from Massive Mass turntables... as expected.

The Townshend will lift any mass-TT to another level. Because such set-up just combines the positives of both worlds. That is known. I would not be too sure if it would also work with a pure suspended deck like the LP12 or a combined deck like SME 20 and 30 or the upcoming Einstein TT. Regarding Simon Yorke I am surprised that this guy says this deck comes with a granite platform as base. All SYs I have seen sofar had a slate slab as base. And slate is again totally different thing than granit, sonically I mean. What I think one should not be too prejudiced against certain materials, only because some jounalists and dealers almost preach against those materials. For example I do not have a proper rack for my system here in India. I hope this will change soon. On my makeshift rack I am keeping presently 4 cms thick granite slabs as a base for my equipment.

For my discussion, Slate and Granite Both represent a Massive Mass Approach, despite the different ringing characteristics of granite and slate.

A Suspended design like the Linn LP-12 is the other approach, which as you have said, may not need / improve with additional help.

A Basic Roller Ball:

http://s5b.directupload.net/file/d/1817/ct7blupx_jpg.htm

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I believe that Spikes under equipment are Isolators.

Nope...Spikes are the opposite of "Isolators", they couple a device to the underlying surface.

So - for example - if you put Spikes under a loudspeaker which stands on a laminate floor (which usually has a flexible insulation layer below), this will not improve sound precision, as the vibration of the speaker is mechanically coupled to the floor...
So you should have used flexible Rubber stands instead.

Regarding equipment like Turntables, this could be coupled via spikes to a heavy Base (i.e. granite) which itself is isolated from the floor by flexible stands. In that case, the turntable would profit from the high inertia of the base.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

M To summarise, my take is that for truly effective Vibration control, there MUST be a mechanism to Dissipate the vibration energy. Dissipation CANCELS Vibrations.... Massive Mass can only attenuate Vibrations.

dont you need both Isolation and dissipation ?

Isolation to ensure that floor vibrations and vibrations from the shelf itself (due to other components/ground or air) do not get to the component
and
Dissipation to ensure that the components vibrations itself doe not impact either itself or other components.

my thought also matches yours on Massive mass ie isolates the equipment from everything else.

so I guess a Heavy rack with dissipating mechanism to keep components on it should be ideal..si ?

Thanks Marsupilami72

Can you please expalin this further ?

1. How would a point contact between a Hard metal spike and a Granite slab Couple ?

2. Will coupling thru the spike be better than with Flat metal feet on the same grahite ?

Here in India, we use hard Stone (Granite) floors.

in case of speakers, spikes couple fully only with Carpets/wood where the spike is supposed to pierce it.

else it only partially couple. thats due to the entire weight of the speaker is concentrated in a small point and hence pressure per square area is many many times over.

i personally am not a fan of coupling a speaker to the floor since the vibrations do not really drain away but since the speaker and the floor are "one" the vibrations remain in the speaker and this may cause the screws of the driver to come loose. for bookshelves, I prefer coupling the speaker stand to the floor and decouple the speaker from the stand....

Arj, This is something I dont understand, and would appreciate your 'Gyan'

1. From what Marsupilami72 writes, I seem to read him saying that a Spiked Speaker on a Granite floor will couple to the floor ?

And are you saying that it would Only Partly couple ?


2. Many Posts say that roller balls Under Speakers improve the speaker sound.

Clearly, the spekers will be (micro)-oscilating on the roller balls, and therefore the location of the speaker relative to the ear will be continiusly varying... the antithesis of a properly leveled and supported speaker ?

A Nice, brief comparative listing of solutions available :

http://www.gcaudio.c...ationoverview_3.html

[quote="Amp_Nut"]Arj, This is something I dont understand, and would appreciate your 'Gyan'

1. From what Marsupilami72 writes, I seem to read him saying that a Spiked Speaker on a Granite floor will couple to the floor ?

And are you saying that it would Only Partly couple ?
[/quote]

AN..this is purely personal opinion. but yes. full coupling would be when the speaker/stand is unable to rock as the spikes are in the floor..partial means it is being held by friction (due to the very high pressure at the points) but could still rock..of course this would depend on the weight of the speaker. but on polished marble i have found spikes to be not that effective.

[quote="Amp_Nut"]
2. Many Posts say that roller balls Under Speakers improve the speaker sound.

Clearly, the spekers will be (micro)-oscilating on the roller balls, and therefore the location of the speaker relative to the ear will be continiusly varying... the antithesis of a properly leveled and supported speaker ? [/quote]
This is not something i am aware of but i think we are tallking of variation of very small magnitudes of displacement and that too it should be a forward backward motion rather than an up down..something which our ears should not be able to make out, but if there is a problem it is the imaging which should blur and the bass get loose.

this is apparently on of the best racks in the world..

http://www.sibatech.co.jp/taoc/rack_01.html


pretty expensive too.

TAOC also has many footers for vibration control

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bombaywalla, what I understand is that Cones can be used either way, pointed down or pointed up, with the SAME results as long as the point is making contact with a Hard material. You can try this for your self.

Material of the spike is important & after playing around w/ different materials + hearing my friends' systems I recognize that brass is the very best. The better the quality of brass the better the spike works.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hence if your equipment is on a wooden shelf, you dont want the spikes to pierce the wood. Not only will they ruin the looks of the shelf, but after piercing, will not make a POINT CONTACT with the surface.

yes, wood gives hence the metal spike bores thru altho' many mid-end racks come with shelves that have a very tough coating that resists the spikes will to pierce it.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hence I am Not Convinced, that Cone acts as Mechanical diodes. IMHO they simply provide isolation between the equipment and the surface that it is resting on, by use of a point ( High Impedance ! ) contact. They do NOT dissipate the vibrations in the Hi Fi equipment...

I beg to differ from my personal experience. Spikes do isolate & brass spikes do drain the vibrations from the equipment & they indeed do a remarkable job, if I may say so from what I hear.


In a much later post you wrote that spikes do not prevent the vibrations from occuring - I fully agree.
Spikes are merely a passive isolating & vibration draining device & one should not expect them to do much more. They are 1 tool against the vibrations isolation.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bombaywala said : The soft, squishy sorbothane & not-so rigid tennis balls seem to impart exactly those characteristics to the sound - soft, squishy & not-so-rigid. These energy absorbing elements seem to do much better for platform isolation rather than equipment isolation. Sir, If soft supports do this ( which I concurr that they DO ) then they are adding their own massive colorations, rather than removing what is to be removed Its just adding a new colouration and seeing if you like the new coloured sound... NO ? I dont see why Cut-In-Half balls are so widely recommended... :|

Yes, I agree w/ you that they are adding their own colourations.
I really don't know why cut-in-half balls are so widely recommended? Are they? I am not reading as many audio forums are you might be these days so it's entirely possible that you are finding this recommendation a lot more than I am. I am find a lot of recommendations for a cup-racquetball-cup type isolation device esp. for TTs. Personally, I am unlikely to try out the Cut-In-Half balls isolation tweak as I am not convinced that it will be a sonically neutral isolation tweak.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

IMHO, in this case, Synergy is simply a sugar coated word for COMPROMISE !

I'm with you on this one!
IMO there is nothing called "synergy" in audio - everything's got to pull its own weight for the whole system to be world-class. When one synergizes then one is using 2 wrongs to make 1 right for 1 particular case -electronically speaking, it's a very high Q system with extremely sharp roll-offs; like being on a knife's edge. Change one component in your system & sonically you'll fall into any abyss.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Maybe Im speaking in riddles. me state my thinking on Isolation and Vibration control of Stereo components. This is based on what I have read to be the most scientifically plausible explanations. In no way are these ABSOLUTE Beliefs for me, and if I can get better explanations / approaches, I am certainly open... that is the purpose of this tread, to better my understanding of this topic, which is often followed as Dictates.... A. As Square Wave has Very Categorically said : I think there are 3 types of vibrations to be taken care of: 1.Airborne vibrations (typically caused by the vibrating cone of the loudspeakers) 2.Vibration that travel through the floor into the platform holding the gear. 3.Vibration that originate from the equipment itself. It travels into the platform holding the gear. B. ISOLATION: Its an effort to keep one source of vibration from affecting another component. eg : Isolating a Turntable from being affected by vibration that travels through the floor. I believe that Spikes under equipment are Isolators. They prevent (minimise) vibration from the floor from reaching the equipment. They also minimise vibration from one equipment from reaching another ( eg Vibration from the Speakers from reaching the CD player. Isolators DO NOT stop, or prevent vibrations. The source of vibration will continue unabated, possiobly affecting its own performance. ************************ I would like to take a break from this topic briefly and take the analogy of Crash resistance and Crash survival in cars.... In the 50s, Cars were built Massively. The approach ( besides opulent size) was to make them as strong and heavy as possible ... like battle tanks ... to survive a crash. When these cars cars hit something they ( the cars ! ) did not dent much. Note that the ENERGY of ANY collision MUST be dissipated. The cars were built so solidly that they wrecked everything else... the object they hit ( if it was not as massive os a car ) and the occupants in the car, received a full dose of the Impact (Vibration). The current design approach to building cars is that the Cars are built light and have "Crumple Zones" These parts of the car are designed to cruple in a crash and expend the energy of Impact, while the occupant are safe. That is why we see cars "Totalled" in a crash, but occcipants surviving. The key is to ensure that the Energy is Diispated safely, without advese effect. The earlier 'Massive Build - Brute Force' approach was deadly, if the Massive build was not massive enough for the situation. Back to the drawing board and build the next one Even More Massive ! That approach is not popular any more .... atleast with cars. ********************************* Back to our Stereos: Roller Balls take the approach of DISSIPATING the vibration energy, so that the energy does not cause disturbances. The Vibrations on a Stereo component will be BOTH - Horizontal & Vertical Vibrations. ( Angular Vibrations are a mix of Horizontal and vertical ) The Roller balls ALLOW the entire Component ( eg CD player) to rock on its roller ball feet, and DISSIPATE the Vibration energy. In addition, an almost perfect Point Contact is created between the VERY Hard material ball and the VERY finely polished surface, provide isolation also. The Very fine polish & hard ball which will not suffer micro dents, also permits micro oscillations for energy dissipation, improving results. The limitations of the Roller Ball approach is that the ball ONLY rolls HORIZONTALLY. The VERTICAL Vibrations are not addressed and dissipated. Strings, Springs, Cycle Tubes etc typically address Verical vibrations, and are often recommended in conjunction with Roller balls. To summarise, my take is that for truly effective Vibration control, there MUST be a mechanism to Dissipate the vibration energy. Dissipation CANCELS Vibrations.... Massive Mass can only attenuate Vibrations. To touch on turntables ...,. the other approach to Massive Weight is the Suspended Sub-chasis design a-la- AR and Linn. The Suspended designs are suspended from springs, allowing them to vibrate and dissipate vibrational energy. They reportedly sound QUITE different from Massive Mass turntables... as expected.

Amp_Nut,
reading this long post of yours tells me that you have your solution to isolation & vibration control using 1 set of techniques. I also recognize that you had assimilated all this information, formed your opinions well BEFORE you initiated this thread. Now what you need to do is implement the solution in your setup & evaluate it. Hear what changed, what got better & what needs improvement.
The road to a personally satisfying solution will come from trial & error (lots of it!) & not from blogging on this forum.

From my experience slate rock makes an excellent isolation platform because of its inherent structure. You can research this on-line in your free time but, succintly, slate is a metamorphic rock that has its origins in clay & shales. Over time intense pressure & temperature in the earth's movement have created slate rock. The structure of slate is such that its particles are all aligned horizontally (that's why it can be cut into thin sheets). Sonically, the advantage of slate is that it allows sheer movement & this sheer movement dissipates the vibrations with the mass of slate rock preventing it from reaching the electronics.

Like you have written towards the end of this long post - vibration & isolation are addressed by a multi-part solution: rollerblocks for the X-Y direction & some sort of air-platform for the Z direction. There are several solutions for the X-Y direction, you seem to favour one really good one called the rollerblocks. Similarly, choose one solution for the Z direction.

From my experience, a sandbox under a TT is an effective isolation & vibration control tweak but only in the X-Y direction. HAving an air platform (a Townsend or a Ginko or a Vibraplane) seems to be a better alternative for all three dimensions.
Air platforms will work best when one can put sufficient weight on the platform so that the air gets compressed a little. Then there is a resistance created by the air that opposes any Z direction movement. Compressed air is also a good isolator hence it prevents any vibrations in the X-Y dimension from getting thru.
The Townsend & Vibraplane solution have some maintenance aspect to them - you'll see many Vibraplane owners use an air compressor to maintain the air pressure.

My 2 paisa comments FWIW (which seems to be very little).

Ampnut

Just a wild thought....use oil, a bit compressed, instead of air for the vertical plane isolation ? If sealed properly, it would work.

....And if oil works can we make a suspension device using old based shock absorbers in tandem with hard highly polished roller balls ?

Manek

Manek, From the little I know, I'm not so sure... Liquids are practically Non Compressable. They also transmit Vibrations ( and sound ) Far more than Gases...

But that would imply that Liquid Filed Shock Absorbers are less effective than Gas filled ? No sure if this is true.

Can someone explain ?

Hi Bombaywalla, Thanks for your very detailed explanation onm slate. I found it very informative.

However, Bombaywalla said:

I also recognize that you had assimilated all this information, formed your opinions well BEFORE you initiated this thread.

Yup, as I said :

my thinking on Isolation and Vibration control of Stereo components. This is based on what I have read to be the most scientifically plausible explanations. In no way are these ABSOLUTE Beliefs for me, and if I can get better explanations / approaches, I am certainly open... that is the purpose of this tread, to better my understanding of this topic, which is often followed as Dictates....

Bombaywalla said:

The road to a personally satisfying solution will come from trial & error (lots of it!) & not from blogging on this forum.

I dont quite discount the opinions of this forum, as much as you recommend I should

Jochem's inputs (based on His actual trials ) that Aircraft Grade Al sounds better than SS are a case to pint.

There is no point in stumbling over the same problem, twice ! Its great to have someone share their experiences and build on that before moving ahead.

Its good to have a forum where people actually share and relate what they have experienced.

Trial and error is painful, expensive and time consuming. There are better altrnates, especially for a rational and open mind.

There are still many points that I do not understand. For one ... do Cones couple or Isolate ?

Ampnut

Sorry what I meant was oil under a bit of pressure...
Low or high viscosity liquids ?

Btw I have actually found delrin cones work well. Can't find them in bombay unfortunately, maybe I don't know where to look. I had two pieces some time back but have misplaced them now.
Does anyone know where one can find delrin products ?
Remember reading somewhere that delrin used to be used in tt's as well.

Manek

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Thanks for your very detailed explanation onm slate. I found it very informative.

welcome.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I dont quite discount the opinions of this forum, as much as you recommend I should Jochem's inputs (based on His actual trials ) that Aircraft Grade Al sounds better than SS are a case to pint. There is no point in stumbling over the same problem, twice ! Its great to have someone share their experiences and build on that before moving ahead. Its good to have a forum where people actually share and relate what they have experienced. Trial and error is painful, expensive and time consuming. There are better altrnates, especially for a rational and open mind. There are still many points that I do not understand. For one ... do Cones couple or Isolate ? :?

oh no! I am not saying that you should not disregard the opinions of the people in the forum; what I meant to say is that, now that you have a pretty good understanding of isolation & vibration control, you should implement a solution for your 2-ch system. SInce you are citing Jochen, let's continue with that: in an earlier post Jochen wrote

All will do their job but all will make your hifi gear perform differntly. So again auditioning is the only way to find out what suits your ears best.

and once again he wrote:

Hard coupling very often results in tighter bass and overall "faster" performance. But that might not work with all equipment. That's why I always say you have to really try it out and try all possibilities available. That's what I recommended to amp nut also.

So, that is where I was going with my comment, Amp_Nut.
Between your reading on-line + the discussion here much info has been disseminated. When you implement the solution for yourself, you might find what works for some of us might not work for you or it might work but you might not like the results. That experience will shape your opinion(s) the next time you write on this subject. Anyway, that's where I was intending to communicate. FWIW.

Arj schrieb:

Jochen i only have the FOS. the rollerblocks were abhis. your comment on coupling is enlightening. i actually have half cut squashballs below a wooden board and have the FOS on top of that ...maybe that is where the problem is.

This config does not sound correct. FOS should be used on a firm platform to be effective.

On a generic note : When we use any spring/elastic action as a solution, then "Compliance" becomes importance.

Unless your CDP/Transport is very heavy, the cut-ball is going to negate this factor a lot.

Audiophile observations :

Anything squishy and rubbery – seems to have a similar effect on sound. Sounds squishy, rubbery and mushy etc….

Anything hard – The sounds suddenly seems hard and clinical.

Is this the mind playing tricks ? The visual – tactile observation converting itself to a sonically similar observation ?