Need Suggestions For Car Hi Fi

20k including Head unit ???
Is your current car a sedan or an SUV/MUV ??

Yes Sir ! 20K Including the Head Unit.

Its a 4 door Sedan, ( Chevy Optra Magnum ) with Speakers on the 4 doors.

I always drive the car, so OK with upgrading the 2 front speakers only, if that is a solution.

... and I dont want a sub woofer that will churm my bowels

Sir call me - we will get this done.

Here is what I would have bought:

1. Hertz Energy ESK-165 or ESK-570 (depending on whether the speaker slot on your front door is circular or oval (5 X 7). These are component systems that come with a mid bass driver, tweeter and a crossover: cost 8.5k

2. Mid level Alpine or Nakamichi Headunit (not sure of the model number) but both are very musical. Lots of people may suggest you to go with pioneer but in my experience Pioneer sounds very digital (though detailed and powerful): 10-11k

I didnt suggest you an amp because entry level amps from Sony and Pioneer are not much better than the HU amplification, they may help you get louder though but investment on a good HU would make better music IMO.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Yes Sir ! 20K Including the Head Unit. Its a 4 door Sedan, ( Chevy Optra Magnum ) with Speakers on the 4 doors. I always drive the car, so OK with upgrading the 2 front speakers only, if that is a solution. ... and I dont want a sub woofer that will churm my bowels :D

then get your HU from the grey market.

you should get a pioneer HU with 2 pre outs for around 5K
Hertz component speakers for the fron for aroun 6K
Hertz coaxials for rear fill for around 4 K
Sony 4 channel amp for around 6K

cabling+labour around 2K

all for 23K

the optuion you have of reducing is the rear fill by putting something else..but the components are worth it.

you do not need a sub for the bass but the amp is important for it.

i use a similiar setup on a scorpio with not too bad results (the ground noise does make the bass weaker than i like thiough) but that will nt be a problem with the magnum


...and your choice of car is excellent. i loved it.

Hi Arj,
I did do a A/B between Alpine and Pioneer, both costing 7k....the Alpine far far superior in terms of musicality though the Pioneer was VFM going by the features like 7 band equalizers and other subwoofer related adjustments. Both had the ipod connectivity though.

THANKS ! Abhi & Arj for your detailed suggestions.

Guys, how is the Kenwood HU I already have ? Worth keeping or lumping ( it will be a dead loss ) and switching to Alpine or Pioneer ?

Ya think that changing the speakers and probably adding the amplifier will make the desired upgrade ?

( yup, Its Grey mkt for me - No Prob ! )

oh..ok. i did not do any comparisons..just posted it on team-bhp.com and blindly when by the popular car audio experts advice
just want decent sound in the car as driving is another one of my loves in spite of the traffic and roads

Ampnut,
If you have to add an amp, go with JBL or Blaupunkt....both of them are terrific VFM for their price (6k for 4 channel amp, 3.5k for 2 channel).

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Guys, how is the Kenwood HU I already have ? Worth keeping or lumping ( it will be a dead loss ) and switching to Alpine or Pioneer ? )

i would suggest keeping the HU and changing the speaker and adding an amp.
the JBL and even pioneers own amps are great. you can actually retain the back speakers for now and have it connected directly to the HU and change them in the future if you want to.

in that case you can put a hertz sub into boot connected to the amp (they can be bridged)..that would be tight and will not go BOOM BOOM

that would perhaps be more VFM

BTW DO go thru this thread..suggest looking at the 30K sysetm as you already have a HU
http://www.team-bhp....15k-20k-25k-30k.html

Thanks for the additional info, guys.

It also dawned on me that my Kenwood HU does not have any Pre Out !

Hence if I intend to use an external pre- the HU needs to be trashed.

Any link that discusses the sonic merits of different HUs ?

I dont know of any place in Mumbai, where I can audition different brand HUs in the same location ..

Will call ya today, Bhagwan69.

Hi Arj,
Again I am differing...
I have heard subs upto 30k well setup in sedans but none of them escape the boom-boom factor. Rather adding a 6 X 9 coax at the rear dash board gives a much tighter and tuneful bass...thats the reason I asked ampnut if he has a sedan or an SUV. If it was an SUV, I would have still preferred putting large coaxials in proper boxes and amplifying it...a friend of mine has it that way in his ford fusion and its amazing....really.

i would not want to generalise it but i think booming depends on selecting the gain you want to feed into the sub as well as the box design (ie sealed vs ported) ported would always boom.

it can be done well for much less than 15k inclusive of the amp

Hi Ampnutji,
I have no idea about current Car systems but would like to get your attention to the importance of good sub woofer. The door mounted speakers supported with a good Head unit and sub can sound real good. This I have experienced with my car's OE system that has a subwoofer.

Regards
Anil

Dear Amp Nut Ji. Why shouldn't check with our deaf?

I've listened to his installation with Pioneer HU & with Sub. It was so amazing, I didn't feel like to come out of the car. The feel was like listening to a big setup with excellent imaging, details etc etc...The sub was integrating so well.

ALS schrieb:

Dear Amp Nut Ji. Why shouldn't check with our deaf? I've listened to his installation with Pioneer HU & with Sub. It was so amazing, I didn't feel like to come out of the car. The feel was like listening to a big setup with excellent imaging, details etc etc...The sub was integrating so well.

Sir, the installation you listened to had an expensive head unit with Time Alignment. This is when you get good imaging. The sub was integrated very well though.

Dear Ampnut,

If you do consider a subwoofer, place it on the rear plank and not in a box in your boot as this will cause Boom, unless you have a complete high end set up that is integrated really well by someone like Deaf.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards
SNV

abhi.pani schrieb:

adding a 6 X 9 coax at the rear dash board gives a much tighter and tuneful bass...

I second that and personally prefer it too.

Regards
SNV

abhi.pani schrieb:

Ampnut, If you have to add an amp, go with JBL or Blaupunkt....both of them are terrific VFM for their price (6k for 4 channel amp, 3.5k for 2 channel).

Difficult to second that opinion. sorry abhi;;;

ALS schrieb:

Dear Amp Nut Ji. Why shouldn't check with our deaf? I've listened to his installation with Pioneer HU & with Sub. It was so amazing, I didn't feel like to come out of the car. The feel was like listening to a big setup with excellent imaging, details etc etc...The sub was integrating so well.

This sound like my car [s].
However, I have never used a pioneer HU. I like Alpine & the sound stage is in front of me & 2 to 3 feet out side the wind shield.
However, costing issues may not permit Amp Nut to go this way. He will hear it tom when we meet.

If you do consider a subwoofer, place it on the rear plank and not in a box in your boot as this will cause Boom, unless you have a complete high end set up that is integrated really well by someone like Deaf.

Sirji, this is an absolute No No.

A sub can never be mounted in the open.
It needs an enclosure.
Sealed or Ported. The effect / result will depend on the TSP [Thiel Small Parameter] of the woofer.

'Deaf' will be in a position to 'design' the subwoofer enclosure for sure, no 2 ways about that, but integrating it is a software function. Very Very simple on line solution is available.

Never, I say never [sorry for repeating] put a sub on a rear parcel tray.

Sorry SNV for disagreeing with you. I wish I could make you listen to my installations [the ones I have done for my cars & some for my friends], some day when we meet in Mumbai or in Pune..........

Guys,, I'm not sure which model of Pioneer it was. Must be with time alignment as SNV mentioned. I've no much knowledge on car audio. In my car I've Kenwood KDC-MP-4029 what AmpNut has now. For casual listening while driving, it serves my purpose.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

If you do consider a subwoofer, place it on the rear plank and not in a box in your boot as this will cause Boom, unless you have a complete high end set up that is integrated really well by someone like Deaf. Sirji, this is an absolute No No. A sub can never be mounted in the open. It needs an enclosure. Sealed or Ported. The effect / result will depend on the TSP [Thiel Small Parameter] of the woofer. 'Deaf' will be in a position to 'design' the subwoofer enclosure for sure, no 2 ways about that, but integrating it is a software function. Very Very simple on line solution is available. Never, I say never [sorry for repeating] put a sub on a rear parcel tray. Sorry SNV for disagreeing with you. I wish I could make you listen to my installations [the ones I have done for my cars & some for my friends], some day when we meet in Mumbai or in Pune.......... :prost

Bhagwanji,

Im sure you have a very nice set up in your car and well integrated.
My point being, if one is looking for an entry level set up, then it is difficult to integrate the sub which is in a box with your front speakers.
With the mid & high end HU and good subs it is definitely possible.
Seen and heard Deaf's set up and quite liked it.
I have heard a lot of car audio systems with subs in the boot and all they do is boom.
Somehow the slam is just not there, which i find on a plank mounted sub when integrated well.

Regards
SNV

I sound like a phool, but exactly what is wrong with a simple Sony HU?

I have a SONY DVD player in my Scorpio and the factory fitted Alpine in the Honda City.

In the Scorpio I use standard Sony flush mount speakers for Front an Rear and a Korean Tweeter pair. For a sub I use a Sonotube made my Mahendra Palesha of Pune. It took me just 30 minute with a mic and laptop to integrate the entire package rather seamlessly and it sounds beautiful. My cost was:

Sony DVD HU: Rs. 13k (This was in late 2005 - price must have dropped)
Palesha Vented Sub: Rs. 9K (10 inch long thro driver/120watts IIRC)
Sony Speaker (x 4) : Rs. 7K
Tweaters : Rs. 2K (approx. bought in Korea 2005)
1F capacitor for Sub: Free. Discard from Industrial control unit.

A big advantage of a DVD head unit is ability to carry 1000's of MP3 in just one disk.

What I really like about the Sony is its excellent radio reception.

f you do consider a subwoofer, place it on the rear plank and not in a box in your boot as this will cause Boom, unless you have a complete high end set up that is integrated really well by someone like Deaf.

Very true....I like it that way too atleast for entry level setups.

I have heard a lot of car audio systems with subs in the boot and all they do is boom.

I am yet to come across a single exception to that statement till date. I havent heard high-end car audios but I have heard many 30-40k installations as well as some 100k installations....everywhere subwoofer in a box = booooom .

bhagwan69 schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Ampnut, If you have to add an amp, go with JBL or Blaupunkt....both of them are terrific VFM for their price (6k for 4 channel amp, 3.5k for 2 channel). Difficult to second that opinion. sorry abhi;;;

Bhagwan ji,
I would be really happy to learn which are the other amps you prefer in 5-6k budget.

hi everyone! first post here so please excuse any follies. cant even figure out the german menu very properly. :))

great to see so many indians on this site! hello all!

just wanted to add some of my inputs!!

arj, i dont think it is right to say that ported boxes will always boom. that is not true. some of the most magical sounding home loudspeakers and subs use bass reflex enclosures. while the car environment is different, the enclosure's working principle remains the same.

snv; you are right about the free air subs providing more slam because mostly thats all they do. they have very tight suspension, very high fs and produce peaky upper sub bass. good drivers for free air application are hard to find and if someone tells you they have a sub that can do both enclosed and free air application with the same gusto, youre being kidded.


aks07; its a really bad idea to have extra tweeters since the sony speakers must have them too. but i'm very happy that you have been able to satisfy your sound requirement using such ordinary equipment and at such a low price!! not many can manage that. btw most of the industrial use capacitors do not work well for car voltage stiffening purposes. what is the surge voltage rating of the cap and current capacity?

abhi.pani; sad to know your bad experiences with subs in enclosures. you have surely been exposed to poor setups. 99.9% of all sound quality competition participants worldwide use enclosed subs of some type or the other.

20to20 schrieb:

you have surely been exposed to poor setups. 99.9% of all sound quality competition participants worldwide use enclosed subs of some type or the other.

and....100% of them boom (if not at lower volumes...definitely at higher volumes) . Thats just my experience .

Is there any way one can audition a car stereo setup before installation ? Some vendors have wooden boxes where they loosely place the drivers to show their prospective customers, but thats hardly any stimulation of a car environment.

I would like to know what brand of equipment would sound good in a Wagon R car. Can only front speakers be used or are the rear ones absolutely necessary, since fixing a plank at the rear uses precious boot space. Has anyone had any experience on such setups ?

20to20 schrieb:

arj, i dont think it is right to say that ported boxes will always boom. that is not true. some of the most magical sounding home loudspeakers and subs use bass reflex enclosures. while the car environment is different, the enclosure's working principle remains the same.

agree with you fully on home audio..but am a novice on car audio so will not even argue on that

abhi.pani schrieb:

20to20 schrieb: you have surely been exposed to poor setups. 99.9% of all sound quality competition participants worldwide use enclosed subs of some type or the other. and....100% of them boom (if not at lower volumes...definitely at higher volumes) . Thats just my experience .

Sir, you are absolutely correct;
Most set ups that I too have auditioned - do boom.
However, that happens due to in accurate execution of the enclosure.
A woffer may be a sealed box design & it gets installed in a Vented enclosure, or the bolume of the box is incorrect, hence the woffer 'misbehaves' etc. etc.
There could be many reasons.

All said, woffers are not made for 'open' installations !!
The need a BOX. The main thing is to give it the right kind of a box and the right size of a box !! That is all.

P.S. You are correct;

Bhagwan ji, I would be really happy to learn which are the other amps you prefer in 5-6k budget.

I do not have an answer.
Price point is just too too low. I have never used one at those price points........

I just changed all the amps in my cars. Purchased 6 new amps from STEG - Italy. Kompetition Series. Really very very nice.
Ampnut heard them yesterday @ my office.

http://www.gttrading...k%20competition&pg=1

This is the site for amp.

http://www.eisa-awards.eu/2007/node/730

The 2007 award winner.

abhi.pani schrieb:

and....100% of them boom (if not at lower volumes...definitely at higher volumes) . Thats just my experience .

this in fact proves without doubt that the sub is not at fault. boom is not a function of the volume i.e. power level.

most of the cheap enclosed subs available are very poor quality drivers & designed to operate full steam in a particular band giving the entry level user an illusion of big bass with relatively little power or like bhagwan69 (lol) mentions, very few construct a precise vented enclosure for the car with low tolerances, & correct tuning frequency taking into account the gain provided by the car's cabin.

20to20 schrieb:

very few construct a precise vented enclosure for the car with low tolerances, & correct tuning frequency taking into account the gain provided by the car's cabin.

Basically stating that its not easy to get good tight sounding subs from our local Car audio dealers unless he (the dealer) is a very knowledgeable person and gets into designing serious stuffs . As far as I have seen, most car audio installs are into loudness thing and so even all that the dealer knows and cares about is the "boom-boom dhinchak" factor.

Getting a dealer who understands and implements an audiophile's requirements (at a entry level budget)...I dont know...forget it .

As far as I have seen, most car audio installs are into loudness thing and so even all that the dealer knows and cares about is the "boom-boom dhinchak" factor.

Same holds for entry level Home Theatre too

Hi Amp nut,
Just check with Deaf. I am sure he is the best guy to help you out. His SQ car setup is the best that I have heard so far. He achieved that with cheap cervin vega component speakers in the front and boxed subwoofers but with a high quality HU with time alignment from pioneer. Fantastic sound !
Implementation is important. There is nothing wrong with boxed subwoofers in cars if done right.

Amp_Nut-ji
As spoken. The gremlins in PSU needs attention.

20to20 said

btw most of the industrial use capacitors do not work well for car voltage stiffening purposes. what is the surge voltage rating of the cap and current capacity?

I would love to learn more on this topic.

Can you please elaborate :

1. Which ibdustrial equipment can be be canibalised for these capacitors ?

2. The difference in specs ( between the Industrial and Car audio ones. )

3. The Cost and size ?

Thanks

Behram said :

I would like to know what brand of equipment would sound good in a Wagon R car. Can only front speakers be used or are the rear ones absolutely necessary, since fixing a plank at the rear uses precious boot space. Has anyone had any experience on such setups ?

Since you do visit bhagwan69, there is Hermit Audio, in the same compound, and they have a Wagon R ( what Luck ! ) fitted with their Car Audio system.

Take a listen. ... I did .

You can ask them to disable sections / features and decide for your self.

IMHO, the rear seat speakers are an expendable upgrade, if you sit in the driver's seat.

The Sub ... ESSENTIAL for an enhanced Car audio experience.
Time Allignment have a HUGE diff at High volumes and on some types of music ... less at lower volumes. Cost is HUGE... unless you get the Head Unit from abroad..

abhi.pani schrieb:

Basically stating that its not easy to get good tight sounding subs from our local Car audio dealers unless he (the dealer) is a very knowledgeable person and gets into designing serious stuffs

this is something i completely agree with the blame is correctly placed now - not with the driver or the enclosure, or the car (or any other such hapless factor) but with the "implementation".

square_wave schrieb:

Just check with Deaf. I am sure he is the best guy to help you out. His SQ car setup is the best that I have heard so far. He achieved that with cheap cervin vega component speakers in the front and boxed subwoofers but with a high quality HU with time alignment from pioneer.

this sounds eerily familiar is this "deaf" in concern, a certain mr. rajesh sadarangani?

i am not sure which vehicle this is in reference to but there is one CV demo vehicle in bombay, a silver honda city with a pair of vmax 6.5" comps upfront and two pairs in the rear deck. it uses a Cv stroker pro sub powered by two monoblock amps in a ported enclosure (but you mention subwoofers.. multiple subs.. which is not the case with the car described hereto.

if the vehicle is the same, i would like to humbly add that i have tuned this setup on several occassions though i am not "deaf", the CV comps are not exactly "cheap" (10k upwards) and the sub costs a mighty 60k + change iirc. and thank you.. it does sound nice.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

20to20 said I would love to learn more on this topic. Can you please elaborate : 1. Which ibdustrial equipment can be be canibalised for these capacitors ? 2. The difference in specs ( between the Industrial and Car audio ones. ) 3. The Cost and size ? Thanks

1. industrial applications of high capacitance devices is mostly for applications where a large voltage is required for a relatively short period..induction machines, magnetizers etc... this is greatly different from car where the max voltage never exceeds 14 volts in normal circumstances.

2. car devices will have far higher current capacity, while those in industrial use would require greater voltage ranges.

3. industrial caps are cheaper. a 1F cap for car audio capable of conducting 100 odd amps will be the size of a coke can, but twice the lenggth. a 1 F industrial cap will be half the dia of a coke can and the same height. hence industrial caps are much cheaper.. an analogy being that a rs 5 per meter cable can conduct 220v/ 5 A while for 12v/ 50A you will need a rs 50 cable.

Behram schrieb:

Is there any way one can audition a car stereo setup before installation ? Some vendors have wooden boxes where they loosely place the drivers to show their prospective customers, but thats hardly any stimulation of a car environment. I would like to know what brand of equipment would sound good in a Wagon R car. Can only front speakers be used or are the rear ones absolutely necessary, since fixing a plank at the rear uses precious boot space. Has anyone had any experience on such setups ?

nowadays it is a trend for all car accessory shop owners to have a demo system of their best brands in their personal cars. i agree that a makeshift demo with boxes at the counter is not an exact replication of what it will sound like in the car.

wagon r accommodates 4 inch speakers in the dash. if you want anything larger than that yu will need to make mods to the door panel.

one cannot pinpoint that one particular brand will sound the best for "x" car. it is a matter of taste, especially as far as speakers are concerned... and based on the budget.

space vs bass: you can have only one of them :))

20to20 schrieb:

aks07; its a really bad idea to have extra tweeters since the sony speakers must have them too. but i'm very happy that you have been able to satisfy your sound requirement using such ordinary equipment and at such a low price!! not many can manage that. btw most of the industrial use capacitors do not work well for car voltage stiffening purposes. what is the surge voltage rating of the cap and current capacity?

The front speakers in the Scorpio dash are firing downwards . The top mounted tweeter brings back the focus a little bit. But I agree with you. Overall I am not too happy with this situation, as at higher listening levels the harmonic distortion hurts the ears. I have been thinking of removing the tweeter. HF response without them is quite acceptable.

Those capacitor were used in the servo motors control unit of a robot welding arm. The DC motors are rated at 12VDC/36A each. The caps are actually just below 1F at 900,000uf. These are fairly standard electrolytic caps and rated at 16VDC (WKG) 105deg. These are continuous operation type and not meant for intermittent/starting or flash charge/discharge operation. So I guess good enough for my use.

Actually right now I am using 2 x 300,000uf. This is sufficient for my Sub. With bigger F I was always worried about the inrush surge and safety. The big single Cap blew up the dedicated 30A fuse several times. It would also prompt the sub to throw out a subsonic thump a few second after powering up. The smaller cap is better in that respect.

I did not notice any difference in performance with the lower cap. // the caps also lowers the ESR. Size wise, the 300,000 caps are about x1.5 of a coke can. The 900,000uf caps are a little smaller than a beer bottle.

aks07 schrieb:

The front speakers in the Scorpio dash are firing downwards . The top mounted tweeter brings back the focus a little bit. But I agree with you. Overall I am not too happy with this situation, as at higher listening levels the harmonic distortion hurts the ears. I have been thinking of removing the tweeter. HF response without them is quite acceptable.

Something similar happened in my friend's car....
We needed the tweeter to lift the image up but it hurts at higher volumes.....and then as an experiment we wanted to try out a more laidback/refined tweeter....after some search on the team-bhp forum, we decided to go ahead and try the Hertz Deici tweeters. Hertz is an italian company and makes lovely musical car audio equipments. The tweeters came with company made crossovers and WOW!!!!!!!! what a turn around!! Now we had some really sweet sounding highs, much better imaging, highly refined upper-mids and overall a terrific improvement in SQ. They costed just around 2k. The dealer is at Delhi. If you are willing to give it a try, you could be on for pleasant surprise...really .